Global Summit Online Chat Transcript

[General Powell]

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I don't criticize the defense of these regions, Odracir. I am simply saying that to engage in play with is authorized cannot be immoral in the context of NS.

Odracir (TITO): I say we start.

Odracir (TITO): That's why TITO is here.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Emergency Auxiliary Army

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The situation cannot define the rule, respectfully.

Odracir (TITO): What does EAA stand for?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Greetings all

Gen Powell (Co-Host): LOL

arfon (EAA Delegate): My computer is being a bit childish

Odracir (TITO): How can you say that attacking a region of 3 people with no founder is moral? This game was meant for political simulation, and you shouldn't take advantage of a loophole to bully weaker regions.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Having internet troubles, Field Commander Arfon?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Apologies

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Gen Powell (Co-Host): How can this be a moral question when the rules allow raiderplay? I have always been curious about this position of the defenders, and would like to understand your position.

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Odracir (TITO): That's why we've been on opposite sides of the battlefield many a time General.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The problem (and one of the reasons for this summit) is that the NS rules are grey, at best.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): From WAR and IAN's standpoint, we believe that it is unfair to characterize us as immoral players so long as our conduct follows NS guidelines.

Odracir (TITO): No, the issue refers to the morality of the invading itself.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Understood. I think that the issue concerns how raiders are referred to during posts.

Odracir (TITO): I want to make it very, very clear that TITO will not budge on the issue of the morality of invading.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Anyone in particular interest to TITO and EAA?

Odracir (TITO): Why not?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Since we are here, do you want to begin discussion on one of the issues?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes, I will as well.

Odracir (TITO): It'll be interesting to see how they write their stories.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And at least two radio nations checked by Global Summit for information.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Swabbia asked to come and received an invitation.

Odracir (TITO): I have a question, will any of the NS News organizations be here?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Understood. We are all appreciative of you being here.

Odracir (TITO): Grub didn't make the decision, the members of the Council of Nine voted to send a delegate.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): TITO was assigned the THIRD commentary spot.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Likewise, Odracir. Send my thanks to Founder Grub for agreeing to send a delegate.

Odracir (TITO): Yeah, I don't have a number assigned to me for the pre-discussion statements.

Odracir (TITO): Nice to see you again General.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): They all confirmed, so we will wait and see who arrives. In the meantime, does anyone have comment on the recomendations thus far?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And GLA

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We are still awaiting arrivals from NPA, ADN and RLA.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Good morning everyone.

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Odracir (TITO): I will be the sole TITO rep.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Odracir, who is here for TITO?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Is it just us so far?

arfon (EAA Delegate): greetings all

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Odracir (TITO): I wasn't assigned a number for the comments prior to discussion.

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The Heights (Co-Host): It is about 10 minutes till the debate starts. We welcome all delegates who decided to represent their respective alliance/region.

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arfon (EAA Delegate): Defenders, let's try and make this work. This conference isn't about condoning or accepting raiding. Raiding isn't going away, so we need to learn to live with it.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I hope this dosn't defy protocol since the Floor Discussion isn't open.

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Gen Powell (Co-Host): Welcome to the 2004 Global Summit, delegates. The Floor Discussion is scheduled to begin at 11:00 a.m. EST (about two hours from now.) Please remember to use the number assigned to you for the order of comments prior to the open discussion (see the "Ground Rules" listed in the GS Forum's Online Debate room.)

[General Powell]

Odracir (TITO): That goes for peacetime as well, not just war-time.

Odracir (TITO): TITO sees the legality of invading, but we will never admit it is a moral issue. If sometime during a battle a DEN, WAR, IAN, or any other invader nation says that we said it's OK or acceptable, all TITO concessions are null and void.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I am willing to concede the legitimacy, but not the morality, of raiding.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Let's finish this issue first, if we may, Delegate Odracir.

The Heights (Co-Host): Aye, as long as we follow the NS rules of raideing, it is a legal operation

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Is TITO at least willing to publically acknowledge that the practice is legal within NS rules.

Odracir (TITO): Termination of all espionage activity among and between raider regions and defender organizations. This requires mutual removal of spies, sleeper cells, intelligence agents and all forms of clandestine, internal surveillance from the home and satellite/colony regions of raiders and defenders within 48 hours of adoption of this agreement by participating alliances.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): This is the current issue, Gen TH

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Defender organizations will refrain from using desparaging terms to describe raider regions, raidernations or raiding activity within the game. Defenders may continue to state their public disagreement with the practice, but must acknowledge that raiderplay (consistent with the rules of NS and this agreement,) is a legitimate part of the game.

Odracir (TITO): TITO sees the legality of it. However, we will never admit it's a moral practice.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): LOL. Welcome aboard, Gen TH.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That's correct, Field Commander Arfon.

The Heights (Co-Host): Hm, sorry for my absence. Had to get a Mother's Day gift/

Gen Powell (Co-Host): To Grub personally, as well.

arfon (EAA Delegate): If both sides agree to halt insulting each other, that can only be good. We aren't asked to conced the morality of raiding, only that it is legal.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes.

Odracir (TITO): I'm not talking about the Grub case. After we took DEN, he went to our forums and made a thread called bastards on every single forum he had access to. Did he make a public apology for that?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Since TITO has the floor, why is the alliance so insistent on reserving the right to desparage raiderplay and raider nations?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Odracir, does it help if you return the compliment?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That is quite true, Odracir. MAJ MCS has taken public responsibility for what happened to Founder Grub, and did acknowlege (finally) that it was done without my knowledge or permission.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I am sure TITO was founded along that basis

Odracir (TITO): I beg to differ. MCS went to our proboards site and called us bastards on every single forum he had access to.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I am aware of TITO's status and have great respect for Grub, but I know the EAA was founded to defend and not to swap insults

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We do follow that rule, Odracir.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Noone disputes TITO's effectiveness, Odracir. The issue is how (and why) TITO insists on name calling.

Odracir (TITO): I know all about the DEN rule regarding multis.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Multis are banned in DEN, and I ejected OverThrowers and Sisko for being the same player.

Odracir (TITO): We are one of the most effective defenders in the game. We haven't lost a battle that I can recall.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I was deleted after using my troop's nation while he was on vacation. The nation was Conqueror Reincarnated, and he was an experienced raider from the old Diablos region.

Odracir (TITO): What about your recent incident with the mods?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Ordacir, all I can say is that we defenders need to concentrate on defending and not childish name-calling

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Beyond that, though, we have followed the rules.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And we have swept activity registers before.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We had a lapse in the first ALH mission when Rarely Steamboats forgot to remove the old delegate from the ban list (he had sent him an invitation with the password, though.)

Odracir (TITO): We reserve the right to call you what we want. And General, I don't believe DEN has always been consistent as far as following NS rules goes.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Ordacir, I don't think that recommendation is forcing us to accept the morality of raiding

Gen Powell (Co-Host): IAN received the number two spot, and General The Heights of ABCA is one of their reps.

Odracir (TITO): That's the one we won't concede under any circumstances.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Defender organizations will refrain from using desparaging terms to describe raider regions, raidernations or raiding activity within the game. Defenders may continue to state their public disagreement with the practice, but must acknowledge that raiderplay (consistent with the rules of NS and this agreement,) is a legitimate part of the game.

Odracir (TITO): What about number 2?

arfon (EAA Delegate): I don't think it is morally right but can WAR and IAN remind us of what they are asking

Gen Powell (Co-Host): So you are entitled to proceed, TITO

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Not yet.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Pope Hope confirmed her participation, and that of her Secretary of State.

Odracir (TITO): Are they here?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): ADN

Odracir (TITO): Who got the first commentary spot?

Odracir (TITO): Legal, but not morally right.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Raiding is a perfectly legal part of NS and we need to accept that

Odracir (TITO): TITO does.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Ordacir, respectfully, I don't think the issue regards morality

Gen Powell (Co-Host): So do I

[General Powell]

Gen Powell (Co-Host): WAR is not going to engage in name calling. If TITO wishes to persist in this practice, we cannot prevent this. I had hoped that this type of conduct could be removed from the game altogether.

Odracir (TITO): OK. You can call us hall-monitors, and we can call you immoral. Agreed?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I have made DEN's position on this issue very clear. If MAJ MCS did attempt to recruit a spy, he is in direct violation of DEN protocol and will be dealt with today.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I think that th EAA can agree on no insults. The resolution of TITO's issues is simple, the raiders may call TITO hall-monitors in return for the immoral badge

Gen Powell (Co-Host): ISSUE: Termination of all espionage activity among and between raider regions and defender organizations. This requires mutual removal of spies, sleeper cells, intelligence agents and all forms of clandestine, internal surveillance from the home and satellite/colony regions of raiders and defenders within 48 hours of adoption of this agreement by participating alliances.

Odracir (TITO): Very well. I take issue with the fact that a DEN nation tried to recruit our Minister of Immigration as a spy AFTER you proposed that we stpo all spying.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The goal of the Summit is to achieve consistency among the alliances, Delegate Odracir. If we cannot agree on this issue, we will table it and move to the next.

Odracir (TITO): If the EAA wants to agree to something else, that's fine.

Odracir (TITO): I have made TITOs stance on the name calling issue clear. We won't call you bullies, but we may call you immoral. That is our stance and we won't budge from it.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): What?

Odracir (TITO): I know General, that MCS tried to recruit our Minister of Immigration as a spy AFTER you proposed that we terminate all spying activity.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Exactly

arfon (EAA Delegate): It means the same but 'immoral' suggests an insult, and as such e won't agree

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Here is why this is important to raider regions: It affects our ability to recruit, and makes it more difficult to control the conduct of our troops. They take this rather personally.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): On the "name-calling" issue, can we adopt Field Commander Arfon's suggest of simply stating that we disagree on the morality of the practice?

Odracir (TITO): We won't call you bullies, but we may call you immoral.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Can we discuss the smaller, under 10, regions next? If we're agreed

Odracir (TITO): We must get a concession on the immoral part for us to agree.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Any disagreements on the summary of the "name-calling" issue?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): For clarity, the proposed agreement is that no negative terms will be used to describe opposing forces. The term "invader" is authorized. Criticism of the practice of raiding is authorized, but cannot be referred to as immoral.

Odracir (TITO): Termination of all espionage activity among and between raider regions and defender organizations. This requires mutual removal of spies, sleeper cells, intelligence agents and all forms of clandestine, internal surveillance from the home and satellite/colony regions of raiders and defenders within 48 hours of adoption of this agreement by participating alliances.

Odracir (TITO): This is the next issue I want to discuss:

arfon (EAA Delegate): Goodbye

The Heights (Co-Host): But I have to leave now, RL issues

arfon (EAA Delegate): Thank you

arfon (EAA Delegate): Yes

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Well said, Field Commander Arfon.

The Heights (Co-Host): I never heard those insults before, so I quite amused

Odracir (TITO): So are we agreed on the issue of name calling?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That term is fairly innocuous. I can't really complain about being called an invader. Raiders distinguish between "raiders and invaders" because invaders grief and spam. Raiders do not.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I don't think immoral is right. Maybe we ccan say the we disagree with the moral position of raiders.

Odracir (TITO): Sorry.

Odracir (TITO): And immoral. I was very clear on that I think.

Odracir (TITO): And immoral. I was very clear on that I think.

Odracir (TITO): And immoral. I was very clear on that I think.

arfon (EAA Delegate): That was clear Odracir, thanks. Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but I got a bit annoyed by the 'insult war' between TITO and DEN.

Odracir (TITO): We can call you invader though.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Agreed.

Odracir (TITO): Only if you stop calling us hall-monitors and care bears.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We can accept that you will criticize the practice, but will be willing to acknowlege that it is legal.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): All that the raider alliances are requesting is that defenders don't refer to us as "immoral, evil, or any other negative term."

The Heights (Co-Host): But it is OK, just not according to certain moral standards

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Odracir (TITO): Was this not clear enough arfon?

Odracir (TITO): TITO sees the legality of invading, but we will never admit it is a moral issue. If sometime during a battle a DEN, WAR, IAN, or any other invader nation says that we said it's OK or acceptable, all TITO concessions are null and void.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Glad to hear. Odracir, you still seem to confuse the issue. This is not discussuing the moral issue, it's about legitimacy.

Odracir (TITO): I'll try to get Grub, our Commander-in-Chief, to get TITO to stop insulting invaders, but don't take this as a definite, it is up to Grub. I'll have him telegram you with his response General.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): THe ADN rep just registered in the site. He should be along after reading the issues.

The Heights (Co-Host): Any honorable group would refrain from insulting

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I won't make the "hall monitor" reference any longer (lol.)

Gen Powell (Co-Host): WAR has no problem with refraining from the insults.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Agreed, Field Commander Arfon.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Understood.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): In the issue, it is clear that the defender alliances are free to publically disagree with the practice.

Odracir (TITO): I can't promise the same. I am a Senator on a Council of Nine, not a Founder or Leader as other people here seem to be.

arfon (EAA Delegate): In return, raiders must promise not to insult defenders

arfon (EAA Delegate): I will also make sure that legitimate raiders are not insulted on our messageboard or off-site forum

[General Powell]

lackbird (RLA): Well, certainly this entire summit must surmount the obstacle of enforcement.

arfon (EAA Delegate): No interfering in recruitment

Blackbird (RLA): spy's*

Gen Powell (Co-Host): What limitations are being recommended? And how would they be enforced without an outright ban?

Blackbird (RLA): Thank you for the clairification.

Blackbird (RLA): Perhaps some sort of limit of a spies ability to legally intrude in civil affairs of an alliance/region would be better than a cessation of spying entirely.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): As the term is being used in this Issue, it refers to the planting of spies and sleeper cells in target and opposing force regions.

Blackbird (RLA): Perhaps this is semantics, but is not internal surveillance, surveillance of one's home region?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes.

Blackbird (RLA): cessation of*

Blackbird (RLA): Why is the issue a cessation internal surveillance?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): You may proceed, Delegate Blackbird.

arfon (EAA Delegate): i agree with that. Everyone has spies and they are needed for raiders and defenders alike. Controls are what is needed, specifically regarding interfering in civic affairs

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Odracir (TITO): I think we all know that we all have spies.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): You are next, Delegate Arfon.

Westwind (ADN Observer): No problem.

Blackbird: Welcome back.

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Gen Powell (Co-Host): Sorry, Westwind.

Odracir (TITO): If invading is fine, so is spying. It benefits both sides. The invaders can see which regions they are going to invade, and the defenders can see where they need to be. Spying is a legitimate part of the game that benefits both sides involved, and TITO reserves the right to do so, as should everyone here.

Westwind (ADN Observer): We have had spies that tended to disrupt the regional activities, and this must not be allowed

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Delegate Odracir, you have the floor.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I refer to arfon's points as a start

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Go on.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Spying is a legitimate activity, I believe, but I believe that we should adopt certain guidelines

Gen Powell (Co-Host): You have the floor, Delegate Westwind.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): ISSUE: Termination of all espionage activity among and between raider regions and defender organizations. This requires mutual removal of spies, sleeper cells, intelligence agents and all forms of clandestine, internal surveillance from the home and satellite/colony regions of raiders and defenders within 48 hours of adoption of this agreement by participating alliances.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Delegate Martian Nation-States of DEN: Spying may continue in both regions, however, if a spy is captured and/or identified, the region identified as spying must refrain from raiding for 28 days or until the spy's nation has died. If there is nobody to point to (i.e. an anonymous spy), then no region may be punished unless SERIOUS evidence in brought against that region in a trial to be arbitrated by a representative from 3 raiding nations and 3 defender nations and an impartial Delegate.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I'm just saying this because this one is not enforceable and spying is key to defending and raiding.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): RLA may comment following EAA.

Blackbird: Greetings.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Greetings Delegate Blackbird of the RLA.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Let's do this according to the format adopted, delegates. ADN may comment first, then TITO, then EAA.

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arfon (EAA Delegate): 2) Spies will not make insulting comments on messageboards

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I meant he broke the protocol announced in our position on withdrawing spies and ending espionage as a practice. That is the formal DEN position.

arfon (EAA Delegate): 1) Spies will not interfere in civil affairs

Odracir (TITO): You said MAJ MCS broke DEN protocol when he tried to recruit a spy. What is DEN's protocol regarding spy recruitments?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): This, in combination with region scanning, gives us a pretty good idea whether the target can defend itself.

arfon (EAA Delegate): My own comment is that spying is legitimate. There must be the following controls:

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Normally our operatives enter the target well in advance of the operation to monitor activity, and to identify the more active nations.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Presently, DEN engages in surveillance of targets (both external and internal, for larger target regions.)

Odracir (TITO): May I ask, what is DEN's protocol regarding this issue.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The honest answer is I do not know whether DEN has operatives in 10K

Gen Powell (Co-Host): On Delegate Odracir's comment, I would say NO, but I am thrown by what you have revealed about MAJ MCS.

arfon (EAA Delegate): *

Westwind (ADN Observer): Thank you.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): On Delegate Westwind's comment: This agreement would become part of NS rules regarding raiderplay. It could subject the violating nation to moderator sanctions.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Glad to attend. I do not have the authority to make an agreement, but I can join discussions on ADN Behalf.

Odracir (TITO): Does DEN have spies in TITO right now General?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Ejection of nations violating the protocol

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Greetings, Westwind. Thank You for attending the GS SUmmit.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I say an end to all espionage.

Westwind (ADN Observer): May I interject ? How can such an issue (name-calling) be enforced? Is that left to each organization/region or will there be arbitration of some kind.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I don't agree with this exception, and have told MAJ MCS as much.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Well, let's leave this. The EAA will not use offensive terms or insults for raiders. I hope Grub can agree to the same

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Delegate Martian Nation-States of DEN: Spying may continue in both regions, however, if a spy is captured and/or identified, the region identified as spying must refrain from raiding for 28 days or until the spy's nation has died. If there is nobody to point to (i.e. an anonymous spy), then no region may be punished unless SERIOUS evidence in brought against that region in a trial to be arbitrated by a representative from 3 raiding nations and 3 defender nations and an impartial Delegate.

Odracir (TITO): I'll talk to Grub about the name calling thing.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): MAJ MCS has added a provision to this recommendation:

Odracir (TITO): I assure you that he tried to recruit Ad Infinitum, our Minister of Immigration, a member of the Council of Nine as a spy against the 10000 Islands and TITO after you proposed we stop all clandestine activites.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I think that sounds fair

[General Powell]

Blackbird (RLA): refresh

Odracir (TITO): If a spy is caught, the organization will plant a new one.

Odracir (TITO): Anything special happen?

arfon (EAA Delegate): I think we can agree that spies are used in military matters and all attempts to stray beyond those bounds shoould be condemned.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Welcome back, Ordracir.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I would recommend that spies not be allowed to attempt to influence internal politics.

Odracir (TITO): Back

Blackbird (RLA): Well then, it would certainly seem to me that those would be easily tagged as spies.

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Westwind (ADN Observer): There have been those that have gone off topic on multiple threads, that sort of thing. Very poor performance for spies.

Westwind (ADN Observer): No, they can post of course, just not be disruptive of the normally ongoing activities of the region.

Blackbird (RLA): HQ***

Blackbird (RLA): HW*

Blackbird (RLA): What do you mean by interfere Delegate Westwind? Would spies not be allowed to post? Then they could be smoked out by mandating everyone post in the civil HW.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): How would you define "interference" and "disprutive," Delegate Westwind.

Blackbird (RLA): I would agree with the statemebt regardin delegateship.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Spies should not interfere with regional happenings or be disruptive of the regional HQ or forums (though their pretty bad spies if they do)

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I agree, Delegate Arfon. WAR and IAN would accept this.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Spies should never make an attempt for delegateship

Blackbird (RLA): I would agree with prohibiting recruitment interference.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Does anyone have a set of activities that they would prohibit? Certainly recruitment interference is one.

Blackbird (RLA): Refresh.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I think that groundrules for spies can still be discussed.

arfon (EAA Delegate): So it's a comprimise, not something to eradicate instantly

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Since it seems to have been agreed that each issue shall be taken one by one and not in its totality, I would say, not commenting on the Merits of the 4th above statement by Martian Nation-States, that American style arbitration is traditionally done by each party picking an arbitrator, and said two arbitrators agree on a nuetral third arbitrator, who arbitrates any hearing (without the first two doing anything but having picked the third).

Westwind (ADN Observer): That is true also.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Westwind, I agree but at the moment spying also ties gameplay

Westwind (ADN Observer): I can see your point on wanting to cease all spy activity, but that is just as unrealistic as the court system.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I agree, Delegate Westwind.

Westwind (ADN Observer): That court system will tie everyone up with beuracracy and bring gameplay to a halt.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And must rest upon the honor and integrity of the leaders.

arfon (EAA Delegate): It would be hard yes, but enforcing laws against shoplifting is hard

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Enforcement would have to be based on the leadership within each alliance and/or region.

Blackbird (RLA): I find that an unrealistic method of arbitration. I posted that a more effective method of arbitration would be American-Style arbitration, where each side picks two arbitrators, who then agree on the third arbitrator, who solely governs the proceedings and renders a verdict.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): How to be certain that no spies are placed in target and opposing force regions.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Can I ask what is meant by enforcement?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): According to MCS's recommendation, Delegate Blackbird, a three arbitrator panel (one from a raider region, one from a defender region and one from a neutral region) would serve as an impromptu "court."

Odracir (TITO): brb

Odracir (TITO): It's unrealistic as I said.

Blackbird (RLA): It seems quite problemartic, this issue of enforcement.

Odracir (TITO): I say we remove this issue and move on to the next one.

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Gen Powell (Co-Host): Which is why I have a real problem on my hands in DEN, Delegate Odracir. You are begining to understand why I abhor the practice of espionage altogether.

Odracir (TITO): May I remind that MCS tried to recruit our Minister of Immigration, the person in charge of our recruiting.

Blackbird (RLA): Who would determine whether or not a violation exists based on our distinction?

Blackbird (RLA): And if we were to make a distincton between civil and military spying and an issue came up, in whose court would the spy be tried?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): So no interference with recruitment.

Odracir (TITO): As far as spying goes that is.

Odracir (TITO): Enforcement is unrealistic.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes, that is true. I was looking for specific applications though, Delegate Blackbird.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I agree, Odracir, spying is a natural extension of the raider-defender axis. I can easily see a proposed list of controls on spy activity, but enforcement will be a problem.

[General Powell]

Westwind (ADN Observer): No attempt at delegateship was also discussed.

arfon (EAA Delegate): The EAA views any interference of spies in non-military affairs as unacceptable

Blackbird (RLA): I know Westwind, but it is over a month old and has not incorporated any of the changes or debate that has taken place since then. You should also note that no one has posted in the thread for several days now.

Odracir (TITO): No spies in regional government, and they can't interfere with regional activities, especially recruiting. Anything else is fair game.

Westwind (ADN Observer): There is a draft proposal on the NS forums.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes, Delegate Westwind.

Blackbird (RLA): I wasn't aware that the Mods had even come up with a single document, as so much of it is still being debated.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): So on the issue of espionage, where do we stand on prohibited practices?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Well said, Field Commander Arfon.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I think we need to agree that if an issue is hard to enfoce, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be enforced.

Westwind (ADN Observer): They have already posted their draft proposal, would it not be more likely for the mods to work with us if we used that as a basis to proceed from ?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): LOL

Blackbird (RLA): It would be nice to be surprised.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Agreed. This would be sent as a supplement to the new rules.

Odracir (TITO): You're right, I might be.

Blackbird (RLA): Particularly since the new set of rules is still being debated, and I feel will most likely continue to be debated well into the summer.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): You might be surprised, Delegate Odracir.

Odracir (TITO): It's unrealistic to think that the mods will agree to any of this.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Reguarding spying.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We can only make the recommendation to the moderators. Most of you know how little faith I have in the mods, but we can encourage them as a group to adopt these.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I agree, Blackbird, this can only be an set of guidelines of conduct between organizations and regions.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): ADN was rank 1st, and TITO and RRA tied.

Blackbird (RLA): I sincerely doubt that the NS Moderators would ever codify anything regarding espionage by raiders/defenders. "Play Nice" is as far as they've gotten.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): According to the poll. Who knows how it was conducted.

Odracir (TITO): TITO's job is enjoyable. I enjoyed reading today that you were found to be the second most powerfu army.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That is true, Delegate Blackbird. The issues we are addressing may (hopefully) become NS rules.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): It will make the job of the defender alliances more difficult, but more enjoyable.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Potentially that's true, Delegate Odracir.

Blackbird (RLA): With all due respect.

Blackbird (RLA): The NationStates rules include nothing regarding espionage or anything of the sort. Raiders have to abide by NS rules, because sooner or later, they'll be caught.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We won't do through the backdoor what we insist cannot go on through the front door.

Odracir (TITO): New players would rather be invaders than defenders.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Your position is understood, Delegate Blackbird. DEN and WAR are attempting to change the way raiders are viewed in this game. That is why I insist on compliance with NS rules.

Odracir (TITO): My thoughts exactly.

Blackbird (RLA): While I was not questinging the fact that WAR, IAN or DEN would adopt these rules, invader alliances, by numbers of invader alliances, crop up much more often than the defender alliance, and you could simply have one of the new, younger raider alliances perform your intelligence work by proxy.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): *how WAR deals with...*

Gen Powell (Co-Host): This will apply to any raider region which deviates from our agreement.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I think Delegate Arfon will tell you who WAR deals with spammers and griefers.

arfon (EAA Delegate): As long as WAR and IAN agree to this, we can deal with raiders who do not

Westwind (ADN Observer): That is one of my great concerns, Blackbird.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Correct, Delegate Westwind.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): If they are members (or wish to be) of WAR or IAN, they will have to adopt and follow these rules as a condition of membership.

Westwind (ADN Observer): So, spies cannot attempt delegateship, interfere in recruitment, or influence regional internal politics.

Blackbird (RLA): With new raider alliances springing up, I find it difficult to believe that they will enforce these rules honorably or ethically.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Agreed

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes.

Odracir (TITO): Does that mean no spies in the regional governments?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Nations caught spying for other than military matters could face moderator sanctions.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Only a cessation of spies interfering in civil affiars

Odracir (TITO): I see.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Perhaps not, Delegate Odracir. Each region and alliance can agree to enforce the provision. It will require honest and ethical gamesmanship.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Odracir, we are only talking about groundrules for spies.

arfon (EAA Delegate): We have ceased talking about an outright ban

Odracir (TITO): Is there one that DEN would like to see discussed?

Odracir (TITO): This issue is unrealistic to enforce, so I think we should move to a new one.

[General Powell]

arfon (EAA Delegate): Ok, let's post on the board that nations must contact a defender to prove activity

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The same way DEN did in 2 Miles Past Nowhere.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): No, Delegate Blackbird. This would be a relinquishment by agreement.

639 (EAA): Thats my point.

Blackbird (RLA): I think it is entirely unenforceable, as the raider delegate could simply eject any nation that got within the requisite number of endorsement for the raider to relinquish control.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes, I read that.

arfon (EAA Delegate): 639 made an point on this

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That way, we can be reasonably sure these are individual players.

639 (EAA): Who makes the final call, and how soon after would the raiders need to be gone?

Odracir (TITO): I have agreed in principle to the name calling thing (you can call us hall monitors and we can call you immoral) and the espionage issue.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): WAR and IAN would like to limit this requirement to UN nations.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Agreed. There is the question of alternates, however.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Then we can count

arfon (EAA Delegate): I think active nations must be asked to post on the RMB

Gen Powell (Co-Host): OK. We can treat this as the last issue for discussion.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Defenders.

Odracir (TITO): Well, I have to go in about 10 minutes to go to Church.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): This is the question of how regions which are acquired by raider regions regain their liberation absent defender protection (i.e., self-liberation.)

639 (EAA): Wh is going to monitor that?

Blackbird (RLA): I'll find it, nevermind.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): For example, if ABCA aquires a region and appoints a raider delegate with 25 troop endorsements, the target region must endorse a candidate with at least 20 nations to secure the region's liberation.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): For target regions having fifty (50) nations or more, the native nations must select a delegate for endorsement and come within five (5) endorsements of the raider delegate to secure "self-liberation."

Blackbird (RLA): In what context is this proposal again?

arfon (EAA Delegate): We agree to this in principle, but do not agree with the numbers

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Thank You, Delegate 639

639 (EAA): Than

Gen Powell (Co-Host): (i.e., the required proportion of native nations must be active within the two (2) days leading up the proposed date of relinquishment of the target by raider forces.)

639 (EAA) joined the chat 60 minutes ago

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Targets with a Delegateship of fifty (50) nations or less must demonstrate activity from at least 1/3 of the total UN Delegateship of that region. In the event that the target region has two (2) or less UN Delegate nations, at least 1/2 of the total Delegateship must display activity within 48 hours of the proposed exit date

arfon (EAA Delegate): 639 is Commander in Chief of the EAA

Blackbird (RLA): I believe he is from the EAA unless I am mistaken.

639 left the chat 61 minutes ago

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Definition of "sufficient activity" of acquired target regions to be defined as follows:

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Can you change your title to reflect your region?

639: Thank you General

Odracir (TITO): Who is 639?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Founder 639.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Greatings, Founder 39.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I would be agreeable to that.

639 joined the chat 62 minutes ago

Blackbird (RLA): Although I give my word that I shall make these recommendation and put my vote to them.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Can we call a halt to these practices until TITO votes?

Odracir (TITO): Same with the Council of Nine.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Right, Delegate Westwind. That is why I described these as recommendations.

Odracir (TITO): Define "sufficiently active" please.

Blackbird (RLA): Well, let me say that obviously, the RLA Council reserves the right to back out of this upon consideration by the entire Council.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I just want to note first, that I have no authority to make an agreement, only to discuss.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Next issue.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Voluntary relinquishment by raider regions of acquired regions which become "sufficiently active" within three (3) days of identifying such activity.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): OK. At least we have a tenative recommendation for TITO and ADN, and functional agreement from RLA, EAA, WAR and IAN.

arfon (EAA Delegate) returned to the chat 64 minutes ago

arfon (EAA Delegate) left the chat 64 minutes ago

Odracir (TITO): I personally agree, but I have to bring it up with my colleagues in the Council of Nine. It'll go to a vote most likely, unless Grub vetoes it.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I second that

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Ejection by Delegate/Founder of home region, report to mods.

Odracir (TITO): What if someone is caught doing so?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Agreed

Gen Powell (Co-Host): No attempts at influencing internal politics, no holding regional government positions (delegate or otherwise), and no non-military espionage.

arfon (EAA Delegate): By all means

Blackbird (RLA): Pardon me.

Westwind (ADN Observer): That sounds like a good recommendation.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Yes

Blackbird (RLA): The RLA finds this agreeable.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): What about the general ban on non-military espionage? Is that an agreeable recommendation?

[General Powell]

639 (EAA): ?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Go ahead, Delegate Blackbird. You have the floor after him, Delegate Arfon.

arfon (EAA Delegate): we stand firm if the definition only includes UN nations

Blackbird (RLA): I wish to address that only natives should be included in this count.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We can agree to the percentages if the defender alliances can agree to limit them to Un nations.

639 (EAA): Cant be, as UN is not a prerequsite for gameplay

arfon (EAA Delegate): we would negotiate if the definition includes all nations

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The problem with making it incorporate non-UN nations is the use of puppets.

Blackbird (RLA): Do these percentages of "sufficient acitvity" only include native UN nations?

639 (EAA): cant be just UN

Gen Powell (Co-Host): WAR and IAN have no problem with the percentages, Delegate Arfon. It was pointed out to me that smaller raider regions may be hurt by the 30 nation rule.

639 (EAA): We stand firm on those %s

Blackbird (RLA): Those percentages are of UN nations, correct?

Odracir (TITO): I'll tell them you all sent your regards.

639 (EAA): Same from the EAA...

arfon (EAA Delegate): For the numbers, the EAA would like 25%, 35%, 45% and 50% for regions +100, +50, -50, -20

Odracir (TITO): Same to you General.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): See you in the trenches, Odracir.

Blackbird (RLA): Send the Council regards from the RLA Odracir.

Odracir (TITO): Well, I think this has been productive, and will bring these issues to the Council of Nine today. Until next time General.

639 (EAA): Thats what she said, LOL

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Thank the Council for your attendance, Delegate Odracir.

Odracir (TITO): And interviews with everyone here.

arfon (EAA Delegate): talking for 2 hours

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I believe they would be, Delegate Blackbird.

Odracir (TITO): Yeah, but they could have a summary.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Too big 639

Gen Powell (Co-Host): It may be a bit long to post, unfortunately.

Blackbird (RLA): I believe that the FA is trying to start up a news network. Perhaps they would be interested.

Odracir (TITO): I'll leave you to continue discussions now.

639 (EAA): How about posting it in the GS region?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I will keep track of this, Delegate Odracir.

Odracir (TITO): That's OK. Someone should write down the names of all that participated and we should have interviews though.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): It will be available for everyone's use in their home regions and alliances.

Blackbird (RLA): What if a region is unmonitored?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Here in the GS Forum

639 (EAA): Where is this language going to be posted?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): No, unfortunately. But you may save a copy of this transcript for publication, Delegate Odracir.

Blackbird (RLA): Good bye Odracir.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): 48 hours from the certification of activity by the monitoring defender alliance.

arfon (EAA Delegate): No, sorry, I wasy saying by to Odracir

Odracir (TITO): btw, did Network News ever make it?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Thank You.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Sorry, Odracir.

Odracir (TITO): I will discuss the agreements we made with the Council of Nine and take it to a vote, to be approved or rejected by democratic vote.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Take care, Field Commander Arfon.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Bye Odracir

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Revolves our leadership and gives newer players a chance to develop as leaders.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Goodbye

639 (EAA): 48 hours from the 2nd update?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): DEN uses this method to provide leadership opportunities for DEN officers.

Odracir (TITO): I have to go.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Grow it just like an ordinary region.

Westwind (ADN Observer): 48 hours does not seem sufficient, especially during the early part of the week when activity is generally lower.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And remove it from the Global Target List.

Odracir (TITO): What would the invaders be able to do in their colonies?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And leave the region.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): 48 hours from the showing of requisite activity, the raiders turn over leadership to the native delegate.

Blackbird (RLA): And regarding Mod-Enforcement, I doubt that they would ever approve of such a strict policy. Additionally, it would be very difficult to self-enforce.

639 (EAA): If we agree, then what is the time table?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): *their* region...

Gen Powell (Co-Host): But would agree not to, Delegate Blackbird.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): No. If there region cannot establish "sufficient" activity, raiders would be allowed to develop it as a colony without defender interference.

Blackbird (RLA): It seems, unless I am mistaken that in order to for both parties to be able to sit down at the table of neogitiations, the 'defender' or 'self-liberating' forces must have five fewer endorsements than the raider. The raider, having the Delegateship, could simply and easily eject anyone who reached this level.

639 (EAA): Then the leaders have to announce whose running the operation in the region.

Odracir (TITO): Would defenders still be allowed to liberate the region, even if there aren't the requred number of active nations?

[General Powell]

Odracir (TITO): They have no UN nations.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Go on.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Just kidding.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): How did you find out about that mission?

Odracir (TITO): What if you try to take out the New Meritocracy for example?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That's acceptable. It proves they are active, after all.

Odracir (TITO): Then the number should only aplpy to UN nations, not just all nations.

639 (EAA): Then it has to go by majority only.

arfon (EAA Delegate): What if nations are asked to join the UN temporarily?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Then they will need at least three (3) active UN nations to secure self-liberation.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The problem with having non-UN nations report their activity is that we cannot determine whether they are a primary or alternate nation. Yes, I was sorry to see them go as well.

639 (EAA): Thats the lynchpin, what if a region only has 5 UNs, but in a region of 50+, then waht?

Odracir (TITO): It's too bad that TGKE died, they were pretty good invaders.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Representing WAR and IAN, respectively.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Myself and Gen TH.

Odracir (TITO): I don't think it should be limited to UN nations.

639 (EAA): Are you the only raider rep here?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I have no problem with the percentages, to the extent that it refers to native, UN nations.

Blackbird (RLA): Thank you.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I am sorry. I meant raider colonies.

639 (EAA): Any disagreement with that, General?

Blackbird (RLA): I object to the term "defender colonies". Defenders are not imperialists.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): LOL

Odracir (TITO): First off, this issue assumes that the invaders will succesfully defeat us in battle.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): It seems to me that smaller regions are either likely developing (and thust can meet the activity requirements) or are dying (in which case acquisition may prove beneficial.)

Odracir (TITO): I see.

arfon (EAA Delegate): *Odracir

639 (EAA): que?

arfon (EAA Delegate): 25%, 35%, 45%, 50% for +100, +50, -50, -20, Ordacir

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Look at what happened with A Liberal Haven and Libertarian Paradise following operations there. These are now active regions.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): From the WAR and IAN perspective, regions will less activity than that recommended for self-liberation should allowed to remain defender colonies.

Odracir (TITO): What are they?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Welcome back. We are discussing the activity percentages recommended by the EAA.

Odracir (TITO): I have about 5 or 10 minutes

Odracir (TITO) joined the chat 36 minutes ago

639 (EAA): defeats the point, region of 50 w/10 UN nations...means 5 actives, 50 w/40 means 20, thats a bit much

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Agreed. And this would have to be done immediately following the update securing the region.

639 (EAA): On their board, 1 post only

Blackbird (RLA): That is a very good question.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I think if we are counting UN activity, then the percentages can only be of UN nations and not of the whole region

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Where would we post this information?

639 (EAA): Raiders must post pre-invasion activity level, defenders post-invasion activity level...

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I see. So the activity requirement would be limited to UN nations? The think the EAA has a problem with that provision.

arfon (EAA Delegate): No posts after the region has been secured then

639 (EAA): Puppets aren't UN though, thats a multi violation

Gen Powell (Co-Host): How about no posts by raiders until the appearance and post of the first defender or native following the raid; whichever occurs first?

Blackbird (RLA): The puppet problem would be negated b/c only UN nations would be involved.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): But what of the puppet problem? What is to prevent a single (or couple) of players in a target region from activating all their puppets to meet the requirement? As far as posting is concerned, that would include communications (often humorous) between raiders and defenders?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Then we can count the number of active posts

639 (EAA): But we must state activity level, prior to, and after invasion.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Also, we need to make clear that no raiders can post in that time so that the RMB isn't cleared

Blackbird (RLA): I yield to Arfon.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Agreed

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Good point. Agreed.

Westwind (ADN Observer): Yes, it needs to state, only natives.

639 (EAA): Agreed.

Blackbird (RLA): Well, it seems clear to me that an easy loophole through this would be to invade a region with more than 50% of the current UN activity there and then, when the time comes to determine if the "sufficient activity" level has been eached, the raider UN nations become inactive and liberate what would otherwise be a large UN region. Similarly, defenders could bring in UN nations as well to pass the threshhold of activity level. Therefore, only Native UN nations should be considered for the sufficient activity test.

[General Powell]

Gen Powell (Co-Host): We have platoon competitions as well, Delegate Odracir. The problem is in training for operations requiring all platoons.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Bye, 639

Blackbird (RLA): Farewell 830 and Odracir.

Odracir (TITO): We should do this again sometime.

Westwind (ADN Observer): by 639

Odracir (TITO): I have to go as well.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Bye, 639

639 (EAA): Gotta go to work, folks. Sorry. Arfon takes the lead again. GB

Odracir (TITO): Do what we do for training, make another region, and separate your army into two, and see who can do a better job and win the delegacy,

arfon (EAA Delegate): Then we can agree if they aren't held

Blackbird (RLA): Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 20% UN activity level in order to reach the threshold of sufficient activity for a region of any size?

Westwind (ADN Observer): Rather that banning raiding non-UN nations, how about a guarentee of withdrawl in 48 hours ?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): These regions are not held, but are used to help train troops how to respond to missions.

Odracir (TITO): I don't see the fun in raiding any region but that's beside the point.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Training missions.

arfon (EAA Delegate): I don't think they would be raided. Raiding seems to be about the callenge, what's the fun in raiding a non-UN region

Odracir (TITO): TITO wants 20% across the board, and no invading of non-UN regions.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Correct.

639 (EAA): easier to see.

Blackbird (RLA): For the numbers, the EAA would like 25%, 35%, 45% and 50% for regions +100, +50, -50, -20

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The non-UN regions are subject to protection by the alliances, and many have founder protection.

Odracir (TITO): It should be like a flat tax, not a progressive one.

639 (EAA): This way in a region of 50 w/10 UN, 10 any nations active, and 2 UN active?

Odracir (TITO): I don't think that non-UN regions should be invaded at all.

Blackbird (RLA): I was under the impression we had already agreed on the tiered system the EAA prospoed.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): if the defenders...

639 (EAA): How about the 2 part system?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I the defender alliances can recommend 25% percent of all UN nations across the board, or 20% of all nations for those who do not have UN members, I can sell this to both WAR and IAN.

Blackbird (RLA): All you would need is two people, two UNs, to make enough non-UN puppets to destroy the activity. You could move 100 non-UN puppets legally into a Non-UN region and make it not reach the sufficient activity threshhold

Odracir (TITO): Try to sell 20%, if not, we'll take the issue back up again.

639 (EAA): 20% all nations, and 20% UN?

Blackbird (RLA): It would be easy for an invader, just a single individual, to flood nations into a non-UN region and take it.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I can sell 25% to WAR and IAN, I don't know if I can sell 20% (1/4 as opposed to 1/5)

Odracir (TITO): I agree 100%.

Blackbird (RLA): I believe that a non UN region should be respected for their decision to keep out of the UN.

Odracir (TITO): So, we've agreed on the self-liberation, the name calling, and the espionage.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): For those who are UN.

639 (EAA): If its for both, 25% is a good #

Odracir (TITO): Agreed.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): And UN.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): 20% across the board for all regions. Natives only.

Odracir (TITO): Make it 20% and I'll agree.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Easy to identify and maintain.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I like the 25% requirement across the board.

639 (EAA): UN and non-UN

Odracir (TITO): 20% standard in all regions.

arfon (EAA Delegate): It seems we are getting somewhere.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Which raises an interesting question: Is raider activity a NS function or UN function? Or both.

639 (EAA): How about a standard 25% in all regions?

Odracir (TITO): 15%.

Odracir (TITO): 20% is too high.

639 (EAA): Agreed.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): No. I was unclear. For all regions which have NO UN members, 20% of all members must be active to self-liberate.

Westwind (ADN Observer): A region that has decided to be non-UN has to have the decision respected.

639 (EAA): 20% in all regions, of UN?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): True, true.

Odracir (TITO): I know that they are choice targets, that's why they should be off-limits.

Blackbird (RLA): Well, TNM is a moot issues, since they have a founder.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): regardless of the number of nations in the target.

639 (EAA): both, active

Gen Powell (Co-Host): What if we lower the percentage requirement to say, 20%

639 (EAA): They need at least 2 UN nations

Gen Powell (Co-Host): These are pretty choice targets, Delegate Ordacir.

Odracir (TITO): I think regions with no UN nations should be either off-limits or exceptions to the percentage requirements.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): For five (5) or less UN nations in a region, look to the percentage requirements.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Then you look to the percentage requirement.

Blackbird (RLA): They always have one or two UN's who haven't figured out they need to resign. What then would you do?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): LOL

639 (EAA): ears, the chat room has ears, LOL

[General Powell]

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Good day, all.

Blackbird (RLA): It has been a pleasure, and I bid you all a good day.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Likewise Westwind

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Likewise. Thank You to each of you for attending.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Let us each save a copy of this transcript for review at home, and come back Sunday with further observations. I will save a copy a TRANSCRIPT OF MEETING room in the GS Forum.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I will post today's results, and a transcript of the discussion in the ADN Office of Public Affairs. Thank you to all that have attended, it has been a pleasure working with you.

arfon (EAA Delegate): The more defenders, the better the chances

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Very good.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Next time I'll try and get Sky Skimmer here

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Listening...

arfon (EAA Delegate): Recommendation:

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Likewise, Field Commander Arfon. I thank you and the EAA for bringing TITO to the table. Their participation has been most helpful.

Blackbird (RLA): Thank you to all you assembled Delegates for the opportunity to participate in this. I feel we've made some progress here.

Westwind (ADN Observer): It is a start, and in a second meeting, there may be some further issues that may be thought of that should be added to the discussion.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Yes. He is a good moderator and is very active.

arfon (EAA Delegate): So do I. Thank you to the ADN, RLA, TITO and DEN and ABCA for this opportunity

Blackbird (RLA): I would be very interested in iinviting the Mods. Perhaps Cogitation would be a good one to invite, he seems interested in these sorts of things...no?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Excellent. I think we have made real progress today.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I see no problem with the spam prohibition.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Yes, excellent

Gen Powell (Co-Host): That is a fine idea, indeed.

Westwind (ADN Observer): That's a good thought, Blackbird. Present what has been hammered out here to the mods and invite them to send someone for next week.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): I hadn't thought about inviting the mods.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Great

Blackbird (RLA): I can agree to that. I see little advantage in posting such publically.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): If both sides can agree not to post intelligence or sensitive information on our respective RMB's, I think we are in agreement.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Yes, the EAA agree to WAR and IAN's requests

Blackbird (RLA): Has anyone invited the Mods to participate here?

Westwind (ADN Observer): Agreed.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Agreed

Blackbird (RLA): I believe that should be fine.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Same time, next Sunday?

Blackbird (RLA): Agreed.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Agreed. How about we finish this issue and then table everything until next week?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): WAR and IAN will agree to this so long as sensitive information about raider regions/colonies is not posted on the defender RMB's; i.e., information which could be used to invade or harass the raider colonies or home base.

Blackbird (RLA): I don't believe I can remain here much longer. Perhaps we should make plans for a future meeting?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Spam is simple, because it is against the rules

arfon (EAA Delegate): Both sides agree not to. Offending nation is ejected and reported to the mods

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Any thoughts on the spamming or sweeping issue?

Blackbird (RLA): Welcome back.

arfon (EAA Delegate) returned to the chat 10 minutes ago

arfon (EAA Delegate) left the chat 10 minutes ago

Gen Powell (Co-Host): No spamming or clearing of regional message boards of the home region of defender organizations during missions.

arfon (EAA Delegate): .

arfon (EAA Delegate): Next issue?

Blackbird (RLA): Agreed.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): The raid becomes null and void, and the region must be surrendered within 24 hours (to allow for stragglers.)

Blackbird (RLA): Does that delegitimize the invasion, forcing the raiders to withdraw?

Blackbird (RLA): What if an otherwise legal invasion has illicit raider posts?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Correct.

Blackbird (RLA): And raiders will refrain from any posting on the regional message board prior to taking the region, correct?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Agreed

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Defenders record the post, and then the discussion board is open for message play.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): 1 post only

Gen Powell (Co-Host): All activity must be posted immediately following the acquisition by the raider delegate.

Blackbird (RLA): Nevermind, I believe it has been clarified.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Those regions not meeting the activity requirements are free to be developed as raider colonies.

arfon (EAA Delegate): Blackbird, what do you mean?

Gen Powell (Co-Host): 20% percent minimum.

Westwind (ADN Observer): I think that is a supportable proposal.

Blackbird (RLA): How do we deal with fractions?

arfon (EAA Delegate): Agreed

Gen Powell (Co-Host): Regions without UN members may be raided, but must be surrendered within 48 hours.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): UN members

Gen Powell (Co-Host): 20% across the board for all regions. Natives only.

Gen Powell (Co-Host): So, can we agree to the following:

arfon (EAA Delegate): oops, Odracir

Gen Powell (Co-Host): GB 639

Westwind (ADN Observer): bye Odracir

Blackbird (RLA): 639*